Talk:Joe Biden: Difference between revisions

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So unless there is any more discussion (reliability has been settled), it should be reinstated. I will leave that to Petrarchan47, who is a better editor than me, if that's agreeable. [[User:YouCanDoBetter|YouCanDoBetter]] ([[User talk:YouCanDoBetter|talk]]) 07:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
So unless there is any more discussion (reliability has been settled), it should be reinstated. I will leave that to Petrarchan47, who is a better editor than me, if that's agreeable. [[User:YouCanDoBetter|YouCanDoBetter]] ([[User talk:YouCanDoBetter|talk]]) 07:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
*'''Do not add'''. Disagree. Sources are not adequate.[[User:SPECIFICO |<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b>]][[User_talk:SPECIFICO | ''talk'']] 08:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:36, 27 March 2020

Good articleJoe Biden has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
September 18, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed
September 19, 2008Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article

Infobox picture

Considering a noticeable age difference between the current infobox picture and now, I think it might be time for an image change. I have a few proposals below. Thoughts?

Joe Biden (48548459607) (cropped).jpg Joe Biden (48548455397) (cropped).jpg Joe Biden (48605397927) (cropped).jpg --Cliffmore (talk) 01:02, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I would support changing it to the second image.  Nixinova T  C  07:37, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I agree. However, over at Hillary Clinton, editors opposed updating her 2009 picture until long after the 2016 election was over on the grounds that Secretary of State was the position for which she was most notable. It reminds me of official pictures of Kim Il Sung, which continued to show him as a young revolutionary until he finally died of old age. TFD (talk) 23:11, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Hard to say, I don't know what's more significant, his current run or his Vice Presidency. At some point his Vice Presidency may become less important than his current run but I don't know when that would switch over or if it already has. Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:36, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
I would say that if he wins a few primaries, then a change is definitely needed. There may be a need to change before that, but I'm not familiar with picture-switching policies.Geographyinitiative (talk) 06:04, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
our current pic ~is~ five or six years old. surely someone has something more up-to-date from so famous a person. Cramyourspam (talk) 23:43, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I oppose any change. The official picture is the proper one to use for a former vice-president of the United States.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:09, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose He is the former VP and his official portrait is the proper one to use. What's next? Are we gonna replace Bush or Clinton's official presidential picture as they age? Plot twist, we all age but that doesn't mean we have to change a distinguished politicians official portrait to a more recent pic. By that logic should we change Jimmy Carter infobox image? --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:45, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Support 2nd one we have changed Bernie Sanders' "official" image. This is not a state department website, we don't need to use so-called "official images". We should use the more accurate (recent) one.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 06:22, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Support I would support changing it to the second image. Telluride (talk) 21:26, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Support second photograph as best depicting the subject. While VP is the highest office that he's held, I would argue that he is roughly equally notable for his senatorial career, his vice presidency, and his candidacy for president. - MrX 🖋 16:21, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose #2, Support #3 His face now takes up way too much space in the infobox, it's kind of terrifying. — Goszei (talk) 00:40, 10 February 2020 (UTC).
  • Support any of them, He is relevant now in the political realm and to oppose the change gives anybody ignorant of his current age a wrongful impression. There should be a picture of him when he served as Vice President somewhere in the article to associate with that time period. But arguing that it shouldn't be changed. because he was Vice President makes it sound like his relevancy now is moot. -- EliteArcher88 (talk) 22:52, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Support The third image. Also, he is at a healthier distance. This is a really trivial issue. The other two too obviously reveal his beautiful veneers. No sense in provoking an ageist debate on here. -Random person at the City of Camarillo Public Library — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:09, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Support Image 3. As his official portrait is unlikely to be reintroduced to the infobox, I would support the third image as his face does not take up much space there. Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 20:24, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

"Frontrunner" in the lead

Should this be removed from the lead? Bernie Sanders is now the frontrunner not Joe Biden. It has always been Bernie Sanders the frontrunner but the DNC and the media bias against Sanders didn't like this fact. Their so-called frontrunner got destroyed in Iowa. SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 03:48, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. With Biden's 4th-place finish in Iowa it's certainly an open question, too open and complex for the lede. I am going to remove that sentence. pbp 16:06, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
If you'll please look at the section immediately above this, you'll see that I addressed this concern with my edit of the lead content. The text you've now deleted was entirely appropriate, accurate, and informative and reflects the text of the article. Please undo your removal and explain why you think the mention of his initially being considered the "frontrunner" should not be mentioned. SPECIFICO talk 17:13, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
I also disagree with removing this sentence from the lead. Biden still leads in the national polls.[1] Even if he now falls out of first place, we can't just erase the fact that he has been considered the front runner for all of 2019 - basically from even before he declared his candidacy. And if he now falls out of first place, that can be reflected in the sentence - something like "He was considered the front runner until..." -- MelanieN (talk) 19:24, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
I have restored it, pending further discussion. And SPECIFICO, I changed your "upon entering the race" to "throughout 2019." I'm open to other ways of portraying the fact that he has been considered the front runner up to now. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:31, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
@MelanieN:, I think yours is an improvement - there was much speculation before he announced that he was/would be the frontrunner. SPECIFICO talk 20:44, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Oops, re-pinging SPECIFICO. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:39, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
  • @MelanieN: @SPECIFICO: I continue to believe that having a frontrunner sentence right now is a bad idea. We may have to re-write the sentence in 2-3 days if he loses New Hampshire. As for calling it "sourced content" to restore it, the sources may very well be out of date, and therefore I'm not comfortable with the claim above that the sentence I deleted was "entirely appropriate [and] accurate". Who's the frontrunner before the election isn't particularly lead-worthy unless they continue to be frontrunner during and after the election. There's even an argument to be made that declaring pre-election frontrunners runs afoul of WP:CRYSTAL. pbp 20:10, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
THere's nothing "crystal" about it. There is no prediction involved. It is simply reporting the results of polls at the time. I grant you that early polling is notoriously inaccurate in predicting the actual outcome (remember President Giuliani? How about President Jeb?), but it is a widely reported part of the story. And yes, the information may/will have to be modified (not removed) if/when the situation changes. But the fact that the person was considered the frontrunner for a full year is an important part of the historical record. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:46, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Biden Is Not The Front-Runner Compared to Clinton's lead over Sanders in 2016, that merits a front-runner status on the lead, now that Biden is slipping in the national polls -> Sanders 25% to Biden's 17% and Sanders leads Biden in delegates and popular vote I think having the "Throughout 2019 he was the front-runner" is good, but reword it to like "Throughout 2019, Biden was seen as the front-runner, in the aftermath of the primaries however, he faced challenges from Senator Bernie Sanders" or something along those lines. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 09:39, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
  • If Biden doesn't win in New Hampshire, we should move the frontrunner sentence from the lead to the body of the article. Poll performance in 2019 is not significant when early primaries/caucuses tell a different story. - MrX 🖋 12:38, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Biden was FIFTH, and sorry @MelanieN: @SPECIFICO:, but I'm seeing an emerging consensus against currently classifying him as the frontrunner. Also note that a recent NPR article is now calling Bernie the frontrunner pbp 04:54, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, he no longer appears to be the front runner. The fact that he has been considered the front runner for the past year is a historical fact. So I would like a sentence along the lines of "he was considered the front-runner until disappointing performances in Iowa and New Hampshire." However, maybe that is too much detail for the lead. -- MelanieN (talk) 05:13, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

It's a tricky situation. The current phrasing rather makes you wonder whether he's still considered the frontrunner in 2020, and if not, why not? On the other hand, explicit references to primaries necessitate updating the sentence every week or so! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:38, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

See, that's why you might as just leave it out. pbp 15:01, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Well it seems that he has regained that frontrunner status. After Super Tuesday, he leads Bernie Sanders in the popular vote and in the delegate race. Thenextprez (User talk:Thenextprez|talk]]) 22:59, 4 March 2020 (UTC)


@SharabSalam, Purplebackpack89, SPECIFICO, TDKR Chicago 101, and MrX: We have been discussing the "front runner" sentence in the lead. I only just now noticed that there is nothing about "front runner" in the text; that should not have been the case but oh well. Based on this discussion and on recent developments, I propose removing that sentence from the lead and adding something like this to the "2020 campaign" section. What do the rest of you think?

Throughout 2019 Biden led in the national polls and was widely considered to be the frontrunner in the primary race.[1][2] However, after disappointing showings in the Iowa and New Hampshire primary contests, he fell out of first place.[3]


  1. ^ "NBC/WSJ poll: Former Vice President Joe Biden frontrunner in race for Democratic nomination". NBC News. December 19, 2019. Retrieved 10 February 2020.
  2. ^ Silver, Nate (January 10, 2020). "Biden Is The Front-Runner, But There's No Clear Favorite". FiveThirtyEight. Retrieved 10 February 2020.
  3. ^ Oprysko, Caitlin (February 10, 2020). "Biden plummets in new national poll, ceding top spot to Bernie". Politico. Retrieved 12 February 2020.

I also think we need to trim the "2020 presidential campaign" section by at least half - it has way too much coverage of trivia and day-to-day developments for a biography - but that's another issue.-- MelanieN (talk) 17:38, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

  • I can support this right now, though I suspect we will have to revisit this topic after Super Tuesday pbp 17:41, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
  • OK with me. Only thing is, he was perceived to be faltering before the primaries began. I think there's extensive press coverage of that starting around the time the Ukraine scandal became front page news. Not that WP would make the connection, but I think that, by the time of the Iowa primary, the media was not uniformly considering him the frontrunner. SPECIFICO talk 17:44, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes, this looks good. Of course it could change if he bounces back in South Carolina and beyond. - MrX 🖋 17:48, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

OK, I added it. This will certainly need to be modified by future events, although I don't think we need to add any more polls or primary results, per NOTNEWS. If there are important developments - say he regains frontrunner status, or on the other hand drops out of the race - that's the kind of thing we should add. Meanwhile I am going to see if I can give that section a haircut. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:48, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Frontrunner back in lead?

Well, I guess I have to eat my words. I was one of those people who declared Biden's candidacy dead, the ones he complained about at Roscoe's. I expected Biden to be out or badly trailing Bernie at this point and he's not. pbp 00:43, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2020

BEFORE: Biden spent 28 years as a junior senator due to the two-year seniority of his Republican colleague William Roth After Roth was defeated for re-election by Tom Carper in 2000,

AFTER: Biden spent 28 years as a junior senator due to the two-year seniority of his Republican colleague William Roth. After Roth was defeated for re-election by Tom Carper in 2000,

NOTE: If you can't tell, there's a missing period after "William Roth" Koiyoto (talk) 20:45, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Thank you for finding that error. Aoi (青い) (talk) 21:00, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2020

The word "primaries" is misspelled in the sub-section heading "clout in the primaries". It currently reads, "clout in the primraies". Taguchit (talk) 19:54, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Taguchit, fixed by J. M. Thanks for pointing it out! – Muboshgu (talk) 21:48, 2 March 2020 (UTC)


Under the section about the current campaign, it says Trump falsely accused Biden of having the prosecutor fired in Ukraine... How can it be false when Biden is on video bragging about it? I realize a lot of folks on here suffer from TDS, but this is just a lie.2605:A000:CB03:8D00:996B:2879:2F15:79AC (talk) 07:15, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

If we have "Trump Derangement Syndrome", what do you call your condition, where you believe fake news? Biden bragged about getting a corrupt prosecutor fired because he wasn't investigating Burisma. Getting the prosecutor fired put Hunter Biden at a greater risk, not less. Also, Biden delivered that threat to the Ukrainian government on behalf of the entire Western world. It wasn't him acting on his own. You are misinterpreting what Biden is bragging about having done. The sentence "President Donald Trump and his allies falsely accused Biden of getting the Ukrainian prosecutor general Viktor Shokin fired because he was ostensibly pursuing an investigation into Burisma Holdings, which employed Biden's son, Hunter." is factually correct, though it could be written in a clearer fashion. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:49, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
You left out the rest of the sentence. Trump did not falsely accuse Biden of asking for the prosecutor to be fired, he falsely presented the reason. TFD (talk) 07:03, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
This is all perfect except for the fact Shokin rearrested Burisma Holdings, LTD, Cyprus assets (cars, houses, not all money as they are in Cyprus) a weak before (on 2nd February 2016 by Peterchsky court) he was fired by Biden. First result in google official statement from Shokin 2A00:1FA0:208:5755:C157:F517:29BF:24C (talk) 04:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 March 2020

There is a missing letter "n" in the word "seen" in the quote in the last paragraph of section 3.2 Brain surgeries. (talk) 20:30, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for pointing out this typo. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:50, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2020

Remove the word SEGREGATIONIST in reference to Biden's bill with Thomas Eagleton. Specifically, change the sentence:

In 1977, Biden co-sponsored an amendment alongside segregationist Thomas Eagleton (D-MO) to close loopholes in Byrd's amendment.

to the following:

In 1977, Biden co-sponsored an amendment alongside Thomas Eagleton (D-MO) to close loopholes in Byrd's amendment.

From Eagleton's Wiki article there is no mention of him being a segregationist. To the contrary, he was anything but one. Thinkbanq (talk) 19:49, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree. The term segregationist normally refers to Southern Democrats who until the 1960s supported laws that kept the races separate. It was no longer relevant to this time period. TFD (talk) 20:51, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I removed it. Thanks for calling this to our attention. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:10, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

New sexual assault allegations

In the wake of the new allegations by Reade - which has been covered by many reliable news sources - there has been and will continue to be politicized efforts to remove the information from Deep web. Administrators take notice. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 20:25, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Those are not good sources for controversial BLP content. See WP:BLPSOURCES. - MrX 🖋 01:04, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Paste Magazine may not be a good source for this. The Intercept does not contain any more perceptible bias than mainstream news sources. A disgruntled readers' feelings that there is bias does not make it so. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:35, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Tara Reade

Take note that the current version of the page has removed mention of Tara Reade entirely, not only her detailed sexual assault allegations from March of 2020 but also her taking part in the wave of allegations from the spring of 2019. Does anyone support this? YouCanDoBetter (talk) 20:44, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

It is unsupportable and will be taken to the proper noticeboards if this happens again. petrarchan47คุ 22:15, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
The content in question is not supported by RS and should be removed ASAP. There is one RS: A Business Insider piece that briefly mentions her in a piece that mentions every allegation against Biden. Petrarchan47 has violated the 24-hr BRD restrictions on this article by immediately restoring the challenged content. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
I did not "wholesale restore" the content as you claimed on my talk page, I improved some sources, which was your less-than-informative edit summary claiming all sources were insufficient. And why did you remove Biden's longstanding rebuttal? This feels like a careless act, your wholesale removal of an hour's worth of my work. Please take your time and comment on each complaint/source/removal so that I can address them. petrarchan47คุ 01:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Can someone show several impeccable sources to demonstrate that this meets WP:DUEWEIGHT. We need to seer very clear of sources like Paste Magazine and the Intercept, in my opinion. We also need to adhere to what sources actually write. If this worth including, it should trivial to find good sources. - MrX 🖋 01:03, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
[edit conflict] Can you explain why you think The Intercept fails WP:RS? You can search the NB archives for a section supporting your stance, otherwise I would open a new thread on the matter. To my knowledge it is considered highly reputable.
Here is an article on Yahoo from Refinery29 quoting addressing your question as to whether sparse mention in media is equivalent to a lack of due weight (or encyclopedic importance): Reade’s accusation has opened up discourse on social media about why the mainstream media is ignoring the story. “I don’t understand why the extremely serious sexual assault allegations against Joe Biden are not getting significant attention outside of left media,” tweeted Vox Senior Correspondent Zack Beauchamp.
We have the proper sources and enough of them to support the mention of this case and the new developments. The sources meet RS requirements, and it is a violation of WP:NPOV to block the addition of (some form of) this material. petrarchan47คุ 01:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Petrarchan47, The Intercept has a clear pro-Bernie bias. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:01, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Yes, and an anti-establishment bias. Their political articles tend to have an invective tone, and often promote marginal viewpoints. - MrX 🖋 02:18, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
If you want to play this game, we can sit here all day and talk about pro-establishment Fox, anti-establishment Huffington Post, pro-establishment CNN, etc. It does not matter what slant you think you perceive. It is reliable. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:32, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Someone sort it out. It's unacceptable that an assault charge - explicitly laid out in a verifiable interview - that details behavior tangibly different than previous harassment charges is not included. Here are the sources, find consensus on what is considered "reliable". And let me be the first to put my vote against turning away The Intercept as an unreliable source. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 01:34, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Those are not mainstream RS references. When the story has been vetted and published in mainstream RS, please show us the relevant links. SPECIFICO talk 01:43, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, Specifico, The Intercept and The Hill are considered mainstream and more importantly, reliable. As are Democracy Now and Law and Crime. It is on you to prove your claim to the contrary. Has this been established at the RS NB? petrarchan47คุ 01:48, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
It's not "on" anyone to prove BLP material is unsourced. It's on the editor advocating BLP content to demonstrate the highest level of Reliable Sourcing. Intercept is nowadays more or less an angry and often childish anti-American blog. The Hill is RS for some of what it publishes, but it also runs a lot of right to far-right nonsense in the mix. If these are solid accusations -- I have no opinion -- there will be numerous mainstream RS references you'll be able to cite. It's not necessary to root around for truffles in the muck. Good content is easy to source. If the material is valid, there will soon be many uncontroversial sources with the details. SPECIFICO talk 02:10, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Your opinions on The Intercept being an anti-American blog (dubious and and not relevant, to put it bluntly), are not the point. Those are two reputable sources. And much more importantly, we can and should not require "mainstream" sources, as the entire drive of that logic is to silence marginalized voices. Full stop. I'm with Petrarchan47. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
The Hill article is unsuitable for including such an allegation in this bio. It may suitable for including something about Time's Up refusal to provide financial support to Tara Reade in her bio. The Intercept is not a mainstream news source. - MrX 🖋 02:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Does not need to be. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:43, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I have asked for admin Newslinger to give his view on these reversions *, *, *, *, *. If the complaint is that no sources meet WP:RS, is it not the responsibility of those opposing the material to prove this, for each source? If the complaint is that actually due weight has not been established, is that not simply a judgement? How is something like this determined in a timely manner? petrarchan47คุ 02:00, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

You don't go grab an admin to settle a content dispute. And no, the "complaint" was not that no sources meet WP:RS. You might want to re-read the comments in this section again. - MrX 🖋 02:25, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Why is it that the same weak sources and the same authors are showing up here as were being used for content at Media coverage of Bernie Sanders? Paste Magazine, The Intercept, Democracy Now, Ryan Grim, Katie Halper–this can't be a coincidence. If my memory serves correctly, Grim was a social media promoter of Sanders. - MrX 🖋 02:42, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

  • Its a pretty severe allegation for us to add to the page of an extremely visible politician. Until the story is picked up by an outlet like the WSJ or NYTimes, it probably shouldn't be included. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! 02:47, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
The issue here is not Sanders. It's about Biden, and Biden only. The question is not "why the same authors", the question is when a woman accuses a powerful politician of rape, why don't corporate-owned (mainstream) sources take notice, especially those who historically support him, and why are these mainstream sources the only valid ones when it's this situation? Because if it wasn't a powerful politician being accused, The Hill would not be being challenged, nor would "mainstream" sources be required. Everyone here knows that. This is silencing, pure and simple. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 02:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
According to Deep web:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, Deep web's consensus so far regarding The Intercept has been that The Intercept is generally reliable for news. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 06:20, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi all, I was asked to comment here. The policy that is most applicable to this situation is WP:BLP § Public figures (WP:BLPPUBLIC), which states three main points:

  1. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it.
  2. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.
  3. If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should also be reported.

Another relevant policy is WP:V § Exceptional claims require exceptional sources (WP:REDFLAG), which says, "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources."

This discussion appears to be going smoothly. As a general reminder, please ensure your arguments adhere to the relevant policies and guidelines. Any editor is welcome to escalate this issue to the biographies of living persons noticeboard or create a request for comment to seek input from a broader section of the community. Thanks and happy editing. — Newslinger talk 07:20, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Here's the summation. Is it noteworthy and relevant? Yes. A credible (it has been verified) accusation of a significant crime directed toward a politician running for the highest office in the United States of America is unquestionably relevant, especially given the past (separate) allegations, and it is noteworthy given both the nature of the allegations being different from previous.

Are there reliable third-party sources? Yes. The Hill and The Intercept. Absolutely no serious argument has been given to challenge the reliability of those sources. Thanks to Zloyvolsheb for clearing that up.

Is it an exceptional claim? No. Severe, yes, but exceptional? Absolutely not.

Has the subject denied allegations? Not yet, but of course if he does that should be added as well.

So unless there is any more discussion (reliability has been settled), it should be reinstated. I will leave that to Petrarchan47, who is a better editor than me, if that's agreeable. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 07:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

  • Do not add. Disagree. Sources are not adequate. SPECIFICO talk 08:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)