Talk:Carlsbad Caverns National Park

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Former featured articleCarlsbad Caverns National Park is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Deep web's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 29, 2004.
Article milestones
March 16, 2004Featured article candidatePromoted
January 15, 2007Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article

Information or advertisement?[edit]

This article still reads like the promotional brochure from which it was apparently derived. Wouldn't a little less poetic license and a little more hard fact be better for an online encyclopedia? Agateller 01:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Featured article discussion[edit]

Discussion from Deep web:Featured article candidates:

Nominated by Bevo 03:08, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

  • Object. After reading the article I still have no idea where it is located. -- Kaihsu 18:17, 2004 Feb 26 (UTC)
    • Several days ago I added a small state map of NM that highlights the approximate location. Bevo 02:35, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • I have to say that when I read it there was no location information. (See history of that page) -- Kaihsu 08:30, 2004 Feb 27 (UTC)
    • Objection withdrawn, but not a vote in support. -- Kaihsu 11:39, 2004 Feb 27 (UTC)
    • standard Natl Park LocMap now in place - Bevo 22:26, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • I really think a map with a dot (ideally on a topographical map, since this is about a geographical feature) showing the exact location is called for, not just highlighting the county. Other questions remain unanswered: What are the altitudes of the highest/lowest points? If it's "one of the largest" cave complexes, what are its competitors? What fraction of it is publicly accessible? (Aren't there any bats living in the public areas? There usually are in the caves I've visited before...but the article says that their "darkened homes are only visible to scientific researchers".) Steven G. Johnson 07:27, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • "map with a dot" now instantiated - Bevo 22:26, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • bat material rewritten by Kingturtle. (see below)
  • Approve. "Southeastern New Mexico" is a very good description of its location (there are hardly any people in this region, so you can't miss it if you simply drive! Just follow the other cars and you will get there. It's not like California, where there are millions of competing stories). Ancheta Wis 02:23, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Approve. I just gave it a nice edit. I did, however, remove much of the Mexican Freetail Bat details. That should be its own article....maybe someday a FEATURE article? :) Kingturtle 19:43, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Not an objection, but I would like to see a national park table (see Yellowstone National Park). Come to think of it, complying to relevant WikiProjects may be a good criteria for being a featured article. --mav 11:30, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • Yes, a table like the one in Yellowstone National Park would make a great addition to the article. In fact, I'm not ready to withdraw this one from nomination, but that Yellowstone article is a much better article overall than this one, at this time. I suppose one side-effect of this nomination process is to get ideas on how an article can be approved, even if it never makes it to the FA list. - Bevo 19:02, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
      • Please make one - I see from the rules above that a basic criteria for being featured is conformance to relevant WikiProjects. --mav
    • I added a LocMap that I created from the template image at Image:Map of USA.png. It would be nice now to get it and the stats into a table format like Yellowstone National Park. - Bevo 20:27, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • Added stats to LocMap table Plus some touch up to section headings and links. - Bevo 16:29, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Support as it is, a very enjoyable article. I would however love to see some more photographs, especially of the bats at dusk, and the cave paintings (if these are still distinct). fabiform | talk 01:43, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Guadalupe Mountains National Park link[edit]

I returned the link to Guadalupe Mountains National Park. Although not nearly as well known as Carlsbad Caverns, the two parks are closely tied. They are in the same mountain range and have similar geology, flora and fauna. The local park support association is called the Carlsbad Caverns / Guadalupe Mountains Association and is focused on both parks. ([1]) Guadalupe Mountains NP does have a few small caves, although nothing to compare with Carlsbad Caverns. H2O 03:19, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Request for references[edit]

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Deep web:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Deep web. Further reading is not the same thing as proper references. Further reading could list works about the topic that were not ever consulted by the page authors. If some of the works listed in the further reading section were used to add or check material in the article, please list them in a references section instead. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 19:50, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Remove Commercial Link?[edit]

Deep web has rules against commercial links, Gadfium? The preceding unsigned comment was added by Npgallery (talk • contribs) .


Copy/paste job[edit]

For those wondering about the {{copypaste}} templates, please see the FAR page for the relevant discussion. This article seems to have been a direct copy/paste job from The initial version of this article is here. We are trying to track down whether or not the text was originally in the public domain. Any help would be appreciated. Gzkn 03:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)*/ has the archives for the original webpage from which the copy might have been taken. That might help establish some chronologies. - Bevo 22:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth the earliest archive of the allegedly copied page has this appended to it: "Information was provided by the National Park Service." That's probably too vauge to be definitive, but it does indicate a potential PD source. - Bevo 22:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

According to Deep web:Copyright problems this article needs to either be deleted or rewritten. I'll check into what is salvageable in the next few days. What I'll probably do is create a new article at Talk:Carlsbad Caverns National Park/Temp by removing all the CV parts as suggested in the copyright problems page. Then an admin can delete this one and move the clean copy in its place. Burlywood 20:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I've created Talk:Carlsbad Caverns National Park/Temp by stripping out all of the CV parts. In a day or so I'll notify the admins to replace the current article with the clean one. Burlywood 18:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

New page in place. NawlinWiki 19:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! Burlywood 19:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

movie location[edit],%20Carlsbad, %20New%20Mexico,%20USA&&heading=18;with+locations+including;Carlsbad%20Caverns%20National%20Park%20-%203225%20National %20Parks%20Highway,%20Carlsbad,%20New%20Mexico,%20USA according to the credits —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sarchi (talkcontribs) 17:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

Jim White[edit]

"Jim White explored many of the rooms and gave them their names". Who was Jim White? Was he one of these? Thanks, Zkip (talk) 13:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that Jim White appears in that list. Here is some information on him from an interview with his son conducted by the NPS: Cave History Update April 27, 2005. WTucker (talk) 17:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Here is another Cave History Update which attempts to discern who actually discovered what is now known as Carlsbad Caverns: Cave History Update February 25, 2004. WTucker (talk) 23:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Here is a good summary: Borderlands: Jim White Explored Carlsbad Caverns for Years. WTucker (talk) 23:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! Zkip (talk) 14:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Creationists say this:[edit]

I'm watching a creationist video (Link: , position 31:55 ) where they talk about how stalagtites aren't as old as evolutionists think, and they claim that:

"From 1924 to 1988 there was a visitors sign above the entrance to Carlsbad Caverns, that said, Carlsbad was at least 250 million years old. In 1988 the sign was changed to read 7-10 million years old. Then, for a little while the sign read that it was 2 million years old. Now the sign is gone..."

Does anyone have info on that, or how to refute it? --Mithcoriel (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The reef itself is some 230-286 million years old (see Carlsbad Caverns Surface Geology from NPS). The caves in the area formed much later with Carlsbad Caverns itself being one of the last in the Guadalupes (something like 4-6 million years ago - see Carlsbad Caverns Geologic Formations from NPS). The formations, for the most part, are even younger as they formed in the void after the water receded.
I cannot speak as to the signs; but, other signs in the cave have been changed numerous times over the years for various reasons. One such example, which I have witnessed myself, is a sign which used to mark a stalagmite along the Big Room trail naming it "Breast of Venus". That sign was later changed to "Chinese Hat" for reasons about which I can only speculate. The last time I was there, even the newer sign was removed, again for reasons that I can only imagine (see another observation of "Breast of Venus" and its changing signs).
The changing of signs at Carlsbad Caverns says very little about much of anything. WTucker (talk) 00:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Large, historic population of bats likely never existed[edit]

This article could be of use in fleshing out the numbers on historic bat population in Carlsbad: Carlsbad's 8 million 'lost' bats likely never existed. Interesting research and analysis, too. WTucker (talk) 15:16, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


Does anyone have an online video of the tour? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:08, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


I did a bunch of formatting changes.

  • changed the quote on commissioning to inline (it was hanging over sections and looked really crowded).
  • changed the room sections from 3rd level sections (===) to just bolded paragraph sections (;'''), i did this because the TOC was huge compared to the size of the article
  • added gallery section (this is common on many us park pages) to feature more images, and to move the flowstone from inline to the gallery (again, too crowded)

If anyone has any comments, please do not hesitate! Hopefully everyone thinks this was an improvement. Jonverve (talk) 22:36, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

It looks good. The only problem I have is that there are links to some of the named room sections. Those links will no longer work. I know of some in the James Larkin White article. There are other ways to control the depth of the TOC -- I cannot remember how right now; but, I will research it when I have time. Or. if you have other ideas of how to handle the links to the named rooms, I am listening. Thanks. WTucker (talk) 23:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I took care of this problem by adding anchors. There are other ways to do something similar but this preserves your hard work completely. Thanks. WTucker (talk) 03:41, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

How can the article leave out stating when and by whom Carlsbad Caverns were discovered???[edit]

A careful reading shows that nowhere -- nowhere -- in the article is it mentioned when and by whom the Caverns were discovered!

Yes, there are a few lines about Jim White, but nowhere does it state that he was the discoverer, or when.

Yes, this information, and a lot more detail, is included in the article about Jim White. But it is inexplicable that even the bare-bones information stating that he was the discoverer, and when, is omitted from the article.Daqu (talk) 00:29, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Speleogenesis Section - citation still needed[edit]

"Carlsbad Caverns National Park is situated in a bed of limestone above groundwater level. During cavern development, it was within the groundwater zone." Does anyone have sourcing for this? It sounds legitimate, but need sourcing. Request goes back to July. PAGauden (talk) 20:36, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

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